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Empire: Total War Heaven » Forums » The Red Lion Tavern » The British Politics Tea-Room
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Topic Subject:The British Politics Tea-Room
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Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-21-13 12:09 PM EDT (US)         
Gooooooooood evening good evening good evening good evening good evening good evening and welcome, to The British Politics Thread!



This is where we shall discuss British politics and related matters - which is here defined as everything from The Falklands Problem, through rival claims to the Throne of the United Kingdom and commonwealth realms, to cream tea of a Thursday afternoon. I fancied it was about time we had one of these, just so as to avoid using the Party thread for everything; and this topic comes up quite regularly there *cough* every other post by me or Scruff *cough*.

Please sit down, have some tea, and do tell us whatever it may be that is on your mind - there's a good chap!

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
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*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.
AuthorReplies:
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-21-13 12:16 PM EDT (US)     1 / 57       
So, to start us off, and the reason I made this thread (- which, I realise, may be rather quiet until Earl Scruffles returns from his Grand Tour), here's a funny thing (yes, I (mainly) (currently) read the Independent (now)).

While the headline quote - ‘David Cameron is stupid and inefficient’ (Argentinian ambassador to UK launches shocking attack on Prime Minister over Pope’s stance on Falkands) - is perhaps not too controversial (perhaps even not as controversial as it should be), I would just like to draw your attention to the final line of the article:
At the time, Castro was furious with Cameron for voicing opposition to Francis I’s comments, saying "it is striking that he should dare to rebuff the Pope".
Now, dear readers, I realise that in saying this I am exhibiting exactly the reaction the patriotic journalist evidently intended, but I will say it none the less: "Just as well we're officially Church of England then, isn't it, Ms Castro!"

There's two fingers for you Argentina! Hah! We showed them! Err, etc etc...

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.

[This message has been edited by Lord Eddie (edited 08-21-2013 @ 12:18 PM).]

Earl Scruffles
Mariner
(id: generalscruff)
posted 08-21-13 03:21 PM EDT (US)     2 / 57       
Just a shame Gladstone never actually deployed the gunboats up the Tiber in 1870. Jolly good show Mr Cameron

But I won't go to England due to the prescence of scruffy in shottingham. - Scenter102
This is Scruff we are talking about. I can't think of anything I don't see Scruff doing just for the hell of it. - Agrippa 271
The cake was made by Scruffy and it was... a rude shape. - Liam
monkey in a suit on a cycle - Scenter102 describing Scruffy
Pitt
Commodore
posted 08-21-13 09:38 PM EDT (US)     3 / 57       
Gladstone didn't like using gunboats. He preferred cant.

The Falklands issue is simultaneously petty and important.

I happened to be flipping through the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child the other day. Its ratification by the UK on the behalf of its dependencies prompted a series of declarations by Argentina to the UN over the status of the convention with respect to 'the Malvinas'.

Now that's pathetic.

Moving on, so how about Gibraltar then?
Gibraltar isn't the world's weirdest border
if you find yourself on the receiving end of a bit of border aggression, as Britain currently is with Spain, the best thing to do is to look at a map and find something to bat back with. In this case there are, helpfully, two superb counter-examples, called Ceuta and Melilla. The Spanish pene-exclaves on the Moroccan coast always provoke entertaining debate with any Spaniard keen to raise the Gibraltar issue.

"Into the face of the young man who sat on the terrace of the Hotel Magnifique at Cannes there had crept a look of furtive shame, the shifty, hangdog look which announces that an Englishman is about to talk French." - P.G. Wodehouse, The Luck of the Bodkins
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 08-22-13 03:38 PM EDT (US)     4 / 57       
What, nothing about the press being intimidated and stuff being smashed in the Guardian's basement?
Surely that's far more important than any irrelevant jokes about the Falklands or Gibraltar.

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-22-13 05:26 PM EDT (US)     5 / 57       
Do tell us, O mighty Guardian-reader! The Independent's coverage of this, while not non-existant, is frustratingly vague.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 08-23-13 09:29 AM EDT (US)     6 / 57       
I'm not quite sure why you're being dismissive simply because it's to do with the Guardian. Name a single country where the Government can barge in to newspaper and destroy certain things connected with a story said newspaper's been reporting on that shows said Government have been making a good shot at recreating 1984. Go on. If it was the Times you'd be up in arms about it.
It has massive implications to investigative journalism all across the board.

Furthermore, it's down right weird that no one but BBC and Guardian are covering it in great detail. When the Telegraph broke the expenses scandal, everyone bundled on it. Most of Snowdon's stuff has also been covered by everywhere, including how GCHQ or whatever is playing hide and seek with personal data. Come this incident, however, and it's almost like they're being scared off...

David Cameron ordered Britain's most senior civil servant to contact the Guardian over classified information leaked by the whistle-blower Edward Snowden, it has emerged- the destruction of the hard drives was done under Cameron's orders, effectively.

Danny Shaw's comment box in particular about how Terrorism Laws are being used ever so slightly wrongly

More stuff

High court restricts what the Police can look at

And a Q&A for the lazy

And, er, the Independent appears to be doing something weird...

From the last one-
In other words: right as there is a major scandal over the UK's abusive and lawless exploitation of its Terrorism Act - with public opinion against the use of the Terrorism law to detain David Miranda - and right as the UK government is trying to tell a court that there are serious dangers to the public safety from these documents, there suddenly appears exactly the type of disclosure the UK government wants but that has never happened before. That is why Snowden is making clear: despite the Independent's attempt to make it appears that it is so, he is not their source for that disclosure. Who, then, is?

The US government itself has constantly used this tactic: aggressively targeting those who disclose embarrassing or incriminating information about the government in the name of protecting the sanctity of classified information, while simultaneously leaking classified information prolifically when doing so advances their political interests.

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You

[This message has been edited by EnemyofJupitor (edited 08-23-2013 @ 12:13 PM).]

SwampRat
M2TW Ladder Leader
posted 08-23-13 01:27 PM EDT (US)     7 / 57       
I think the Guardian or whichever one it was should have handed over copies of the material and they should look at the stuff carried by the chap they arrested. Then a nice impartial judge can consider whether there's anything 'bad' in there and that leads to what happens afterwards - so similar to privileged documents.

Press freedom is good and I admit that ending in a police state wouldn't be great in reality esp with the chance of ending up with malicious rather than just inept politicians - but it shouldn't come at any cost. Similarly I don't think privacy should be allowed as an excuse to have unlimited piracy (breaching CoC there?)
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-23-13 03:47 PM EDT (US)     8 / 57       
I'm not quite sure why you're being dismissive simply because it's to do with the Guardian. [...] If it was the Times you'd be up in arms about it.
Not at all. I was just being my flippant self. The Guardian is without a doubt the best source for this kind of thing. Last link is particularly interesting - I had wondered about that article...

I sense there is a great deal of embarassment in store yet for the government - rather than their story of terrorism and/or "national security", which the US has traditionally used to justify just about anything. On the other hand, I am not really much of a one at the moment to place my faith in the general public to know or do what is right for the country as a whole either - so I do not really believe in total transparency.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.

[This message has been edited by Lord Eddie (edited 08-23-2013 @ 04:00 PM).]

EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 08-24-13 05:36 AM EDT (US)     9 / 57       
Neither do I, but I reckon what Miranda et al were actually releasing to the public was close enough to public interest...
Not at all. I was just being my flippant self.
I do apologise, old bean. A couple of late nights have ruined my internet flippancy detector

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-25-13 04:41 AM EDT (US)     10 / 57       
Gibraltar update: Spain doing their absolute best to kick up a fuss

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.
Earl Scruffles
Mariner
(id: generalscruff)
posted 08-25-13 03:14 PM EDT (US)     11 / 57       
When do we get a casus belli on them?

I prefer the times but if what EoJ has posted is accurate that seems to be quite bad, from what I can make out on this phone

But I won't go to England due to the prescence of scruffy in shottingham. - Scenter102
This is Scruff we are talking about. I can't think of anything I don't see Scruff doing just for the hell of it. - Agrippa 271
The cake was made by Scruffy and it was... a rude shape. - Liam
monkey in a suit on a cycle - Scenter102 describing Scruffy
Pitt
Commodore
posted 08-25-13 05:39 PM EDT (US)     12 / 57       
Spain and Argentina are now talking about taking a joint front at the UN about Gibraltar and the Falklands.

(Argentina is currently one of the non-permanent members of the Security Council, and will be for two years)

Britain should stir up Morocco to complain at the UN about Spanish enclaves.

"Into the face of the young man who sat on the terrace of the Hotel Magnifique at Cannes there had crept a look of furtive shame, the shifty, hangdog look which announces that an Englishman is about to talk French." - P.G. Wodehouse, The Luck of the Bodkins
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-26-13 09:25 AM EDT (US)     13 / 57       
Britain's much too self-important to deal with a country like Morocco as an ally. It's France's sphere if anyone's, anyway.

One for the Aussies; I think there is growing public support in Britain for closer ties with our nice white ex-colonial cousin kingdoms, but it is only a voice like Boris's that could perhaps ever turn that into policy. Not sure what's in it for Australia apart from a massive flux of retirees though.

edit:
The Syria conflict; obviously this is not just British politics but it is Britain's position which concerns me. I am not yet very convinced that this use of chemical weapons was carried out by the Assad regime - and I am sceptical of the evidence the US is saying they will shortly fabricate release to prove it. If, and only if, and which is not at all clear, the Syrian regime has violated international law, it is my view that in principle that should not be allowed to go unpunished; but is a military intervention really the best way? And is this really the time for it??? I am not sure if the priority should not be to restore peace.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.

[This message has been edited by Lord Eddie (edited 08-27-2013 @ 07:24 AM).]

Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-29-13 05:58 PM EDT (US)     14 / 57       
The latest on Syria, as far as the UK is concerned:

Coverage: Independent | Guardian ( EoJ) | BBC

Britain is not going to be involved in punitive attacks on Syria, after the government's proposal was defeated in Parliament and the PM promised not to use the royal prerogative to go ahead anyway.

Some people are calling this an historic defeat ("the first time in decades a government ex-EU foreign policy motion has failed"); also potentially a political turning point ("is Britain now effectively isolationist?"). Personally I think both positions are major overstatements - although the backbench conservative rebellion is worrying for supporters of the government on principle.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.

[This message has been edited by Lord Eddie (edited 08-29-2013 @ 06:07 PM).]

EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 08-29-13 07:54 PM EDT (US)     15 / 57       
( EoJ)


EDIT: Rolf Harris is the big story at the moment. I don't know what to think any more

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You

[This message has been edited by EnemyofJupitor (edited 08-29-2013 @ 08:05 PM).]

Awesome Eagle
Spear of Mars
(id: awesomated88)
posted 08-29-13 08:13 PM EDT (US)     16 / 57       
Sorry, only just saw this:
One for the Aussies; I think there is growing public support in Britain for closer ties with our nice white ex-colonial cousin kingdoms, but it is only a voice like Boris's that could perhaps ever turn that into policy. Not sure what's in it for Australia apart from a massive flux of retirees though.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! THIS IS HILARIOUS! funniest article i have read for a while.

From the article:
Australia, insists Mr Johnson, is keen to encourage more immigration to Britain
Bull. Absolute Bull. Sure there are some people who would like to work in the UK, but immigration to Britain to stay? No. I know no one who would like to live in England for any excess amount of time, and it isnt a thing anymore.
His evidence for this is that, as he walks around Sydney, he has seen "advertisements for the recipes of Jamie Oliver" and met "people who watch Top Gear".
There are also adverts for American cars and people who watch the Big Bang Theory but that doesnt mean we should join with the US. Since the UK practically abandoned Australia and NZ to enter the EU and Common Market, Australia has become thoroughly Americanized. We are closer to the US than Britain now, with the ties that remain .

This is just...... What the hell.....

Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it- George Santayana
History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. History is who we are and why we are the way we are- David C. McCullough
Wars not make one great- Yoda
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-30-13 03:35 AM EDT (US)     17 / 57       
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! THIS IS HILARIOUS! funniest article i have read for a while.
Please keep your voice down, this is a tea-room not a public house.

All the same Boris is not really exactly what I would call in touch, much as he ceaselessly tries to show otherwise... and then Australia is not exactly his area either! But then I do understand that the Australian populace are quite divided over their relation with Britain? You clearly are not in favour of a rapprochement.
join with the US
I don't think anyone was talking about "joining with" anyone... the Mayor of London was not attempting to threaten your sovereignty. Besides in practical terms "joining with" the US in some sort of allied free-movement/trade/whatever zone would be thoroughly different to doing the same with the UK - just think about the size of the population, the economy, and the general political climate.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.

[This message has been edited by Lord Eddie (edited 08-30-2013 @ 03:42 AM).]

Pitt
Commodore
posted 08-30-13 04:47 AM EDT (US)     18 / 57       
We already have a free trade agreement with the US, which applies to most sectors of the economy.

It's not possible to have a proper free trade agreement with the UK, because of its membership of the EU and that blasted CAP.

There was a great sense of betrayal in Australia in the 1970s when the UK joined Europe and its restrictive trade rules, but that's hardly a significant consideration for public opinion of Britain today.

To generalise, impressions of Britain are broadly favourable, barring the odd blip around Ashes time. Much the same could be said of Australian attitudes to the US, but without the benefit of a (mostly) friendly sporting rivalry.
immigration to Britain to stay? No. I know no one who would like to live in England for any excess amount of time, and it isnt a thing anymore.
Still, there are a number of more or less permanent Australian expatriates. Rolf Harris probably isn't a great example at the moment, but Clive James and Germaine Greer have been long-term residents. Lynton Crosby's been there a while, exercising his nefarious arts. London is also a major destination for young professionals who live and work there.

Longer holiday and work visas would probably be quite welcome. Presumably there's at least one pub somewhere in England that doesn't have an Australian behind the bar.

"Into the face of the young man who sat on the terrace of the Hotel Magnifique at Cannes there had crept a look of furtive shame, the shifty, hangdog look which announces that an Englishman is about to talk French." - P.G. Wodehouse, The Luck of the Bodkins
DarthDovah101
Mariner
posted 08-30-13 04:49 AM EDT (US)     19 / 57       
Absolutely devastated about Rolf Harris. The man was a huge part of my childhood.

It's even more devastating due to him not being obviously creepy like Saville was i.e on TOTP.
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 08-30-13 09:11 AM EDT (US)     20 / 57       
He did animal hospital! :'(

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Earl Scruffles
Mariner
(id: generalscruff)
posted 08-31-13 10:05 AM EDT (US)     21 / 57       
Anyone else glad to see sense prevail over Syria? IMHO both sides are as bad as eachother, both have access to chemical weapons and I see no reason to believe the rebels over the government. We should not be intervening except as a peacekeeping body, which is not the proposal

But I won't go to England due to the prescence of scruffy in shottingham. - Scenter102
This is Scruff we are talking about. I can't think of anything I don't see Scruff doing just for the hell of it. - Agrippa 271
The cake was made by Scruffy and it was... a rude shape. - Liam
monkey in a suit on a cycle - Scenter102 describing Scruffy
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-31-13 10:43 AM EDT (US)     22 / 57       
The evidence the US has finally come up with seems fairly convincing (ie convincingly genuine). Cameron shouldn't have rushed ahead with his vote - it was the height of political folly, there was no evident reason whatsoever for going to Syria at that point.

However, even if, as on balance I am now inclined to believe, it was the regime who deliberately used this terror weapon - I do not think it wise to intervene. We cannot fix anything except by installing another dictator - who would have to do much the same sort of thing to hang onto power anyway in a divided country, half struggling for democracy and the other half for blind sharia.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.
EnemyofJupitor
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 08-31-13 11:50 AM EDT (US)     23 / 57       
Ooh, where's the evidence? Have you got a link?

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
Edorix
High King of Britain
posted 08-31-13 12:35 PM EDT (US)     24 / 57       
I propose that we try and draw a clearer distinction between topics for this thread and the Syrian politics thread. As far as Syria is concerned in this thread I shall endeavour to keep to talking about Britain's role from now on.

• EDORIX •
~ ancient briton ~

/\
/|||| ||||\

*tegos, -esos, noun, neuter. house.

[This message has been edited by Lord Eddie (edited 08-31-2013 @ 12:45 PM).]

Earl Scruffles
Mariner
(id: generalscruff)
posted 08-31-13 02:32 PM EDT (US)     25 / 57       
In practical military terms, this doesn't mean too much as any involvement would have been US-dominated anyway. Politically we can blame Ed Miliband for not allowing it to pass, and a No.10 official was somewhat scathing about him to a major newspaper (Can't remember which, was either Times or Telegraph) for screwing over British foreign policy for political point-scoring. On the other hand, the majority view is anti-war and it is good this was respected by the vote. It certainly puts Cameron in an interesting position.

Any involvement would be easier than Libya, which required asking the Italians nicely, due to the BST on Cyprus, home to substantial military bases. It's mildly amusing in a way "Dear Johnny Foreigner, could you wait until 2016/7 to have your wars because we cannot into fixed wings operating off carriers until about then. Yours HM Government". On a side note, the whole episode shows the total idiocy of certain aspects of governmental thinking. Fight and kill the taliban in Afghanistan, but then give them arms, money and possibly military aid when in Syria? If you want to champion human rights, the only course I can see is a multilateral UN peacekeeping force. The rebels would throw any pretence of fighting for freedom away once in power, and I hope the international community is ready for this.

But I won't go to England due to the prescence of scruffy in shottingham. - Scenter102
This is Scruff we are talking about. I can't think of anything I don't see Scruff doing just for the hell of it. - Agrippa 271
The cake was made by Scruffy and it was... a rude shape. - Liam
monkey in a suit on a cycle - Scenter102 describing Scruffy
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