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Empire: Total War - Naval Battles
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Empire: Total War Heaven » Forums » Empire: Total War - Naval Battles » 9 v 29 - usual or epic battle?
Topic Subject:9 v 29 - usual or epic battle?
HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 01-04-10 05:24 AM EDT (US)         
I'm just wondering if it's usual to be outnumbered by about 3:1 and come out on top. Even if you have a fleet of frigates (about three sixth rates, three fifth rates including a flagship, two brigs/sloops and a fourth rate) and the enemy is entirely brigs and sloops.

Took me a good hour to do, as I had to pause and runaway to do things a lot, but as a not very experienced naval commander, I found it epic I've uploaded a replay onto the downloads section so you can judge for yourself, but it had quite a lot going for it- outnumbered, close-range broadsides, raking, ramming, sinking and yes, an exploding ship which took me by surprise.

A look at HMS Archer, the flagship of the fleet

A marine watches the fleet sail into action

The admiral (damn ship moved)

There are some very close shots in this battle.

HMS Rose, the fourth rate, gets nice and close with a sloop. And wrecks it.

It's all too much for some as this ship sinks.

"Captain, there's... there's more!"

Boom! Headshot!

HMS Archer and HMS Rose turning to grapple with the enemy again.

A Marine aboard a sixth rate watches the enemy flounder as the British tear into them again. I had to edit the interface out and retouch the sky, and then decided to do a little crosshatching

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You

[This message has been edited by EnemyofJupitor (edited 01-04-2010 @ 05:32 AM).]

posted 01-04-10 02:14 PM EDT (US)     1 / 13       
Nice, you captured the battle well in those pictures.

As for your questions, well, since patch 1.5 most battles can be won with inferior fleets, though I can't remember why, having not played it for a while. But I reckon that it is hard to win when the numbers are against you, especially in big battles with all the micro managing that you have to do.

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posted 01-04-10 03:41 PM EDT (US)     2 / 13       
I don't consider these types of battles to be too unusual. Against the AI, it's possible to win with a few heavy ships against full stacks of brigs/sloops. It's also possible to win (with much greater difficulty, at least for me, but I don't consider myself a very effective admiral) with several smaller ships against 4th rates or better.

Since the patch, the small ships (brigs, sloops, 6th rates and 5th rates) have a range rating of 500, while all other ships have range ratings of 400 for their guns. As a result, with the heavier ships vs. lighter ships, such as your battle, if you get in close, you can pound the small enemy ships and their guns don't do a lot of damage to your heavy ships. In the other case, you can stay on the edge of your range with light ships and never allow heavy ships in range to where they can shoot back. The AI does not take advantage of range differences -- not to imply that your win is not impressive. It's always struggle to win when your opponent has three ships for every one of yours.

Enjoyed the pics, too. You're clearly able to run on much higher graphics setting than I am.

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posted 01-05-10 02:49 AM EDT (US)     3 / 13       
And this takes us back to the pointless changes made by CA on naval battles. Is there any news on the mod that reverts it to the old system?

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posted 01-09-10 01:15 PM EDT (US)     4 / 13       
screw the balance issues, Those pics are awesome!!!!!

it dosen't matter that he had heavier ships or that CA messed with the naval balance, 3:1 odds are hard in any situation. congratz on your epic win and thanks for those amazing pics.
Gaius Colinius
Seraph Emeritus
posted 01-15-10 00:14 AM EDT (US)     5 / 13       
As for your questions, well, since patch 1.5 most battles can be won with inferior fleets, though I can't remember why, having not played it for a while.
Smaller ships now have guns with longer range than larger ships. I've yet to come across anybody who actually likes this change.

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HG Alumnus Superbus
posted 01-15-10 02:57 AM EDT (US)     6 / 13       
Smaller ships now have guns with longer range than larger ships. I've yet to come across anybody who actually likes this change.
Huh, explains the frustrating amounts of times I've been hit with fairly good accuracy with something that's right at the edge of mine, I think, seeing as I'm going against Brigs and Sloops most of the time.

Also, the 'heavy' first rate is less in terms of firepower than the standard first rate. What?

And I shall go Softly into the Night Taking my Dreams As will You
posted 01-15-10 02:37 PM EDT (US)     7 / 13       
Nice battle!

That said, I find this fairly common in the middle part of a campaign. Brigs and sloops simply can't hold up to frigates.

A 6th Rate has something like twice the hull strength of a brig, and it only gets further overmatched as you raise the quality of your ships. The brig is a single deck without any cover for the crew, meaning incoming fire is far more likely to cause relatively high numbers of casualties than other ships. And since they are so small, a brig can hardly take on any water before it starts sinking.

Sloops aren't much better. They have sturdier hulls and have some cannons/crew protected below deck, but they are so lightly armed that I barely consider them warships. Other than a speed and slight range advantage, a 6th Rate has a sloop or brig beat on every level.

No, I'm not being sarcastic.
TWH Seraph
posted 01-16-10 08:41 PM EDT (US)     8 / 13       
Also, the 'heavy' first rate is less in terms of firepower than the standard first rate. What?
The Heavy First Rate crew does have a weaker accuracy and reloading skill rating. So if the Firepower rating is influenced by Accuracy and Reloading Skill at all then that could explain the lower Firepower rating it has compared to a First Rate.
HG Alumnus
posted 01-25-10 08:20 AM EDT (US)     9 / 13       
I have found that the Heavy First rates are best used to just sit and absorb damage, the enemy is usually so terrified of it they throw everything they have at it allowing me to come at them with faster and more effective third rate and carronades.

A f t y


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posted 01-29-10 06:17 AM EDT (US)     10 / 13       
I have found that a large amount of sloops or brigs that sail quickly and manouver well can easily take down up to, and possibly including, a first rate. Why?
For one, they sail so quickly with a tailwind that it's hard to get a clear shot at them.
Two, with so many ships, arranging them in the long single-file line formation allows them to use all of their guns in one pass with the enemy, and turn around to do it again.
Three, typically the enemy unloads their cannon on the first ship and have to wait quite some time before they can fire again. That means that a good number of your brigs or sloops can get past the enemy ship and fire off their cannons without the risk of return fire.
If you just rinse and repeat, I believe any ship is possible to defeat quite easily with smaller ships. I've used a brig to take down as high as a third rate. I'm sure multiple brigs wouldn't have much a struggle against a first rate. A heavy first rate or HMS Victory... well that's debateable. It really depends on the commander present.
posted 03-27-10 09:43 AM EDT (US)     11 / 13       
If you're good with micro you can drop the sails to 50% or lower and then bash the big ship with vollies from the fore and aft at point blank range. Short range grape shot will take out their cannons rather quickly and chances are one of your cannonballs will blow it up. With this strategy you might lose a ship or two as you close in but it's quite cost-effective if you going against a 3-rd rate or better.

If you're on the other side i.e the big ships just spread out a bit and force them to get up close or into crossfire.

[This message has been edited by sidorov (edited 03-27-2010 @ 09:46 AM).]

posted 05-18-10 03:09 AM EDT (US)     12 / 13       
I believe there is a mod to improve Heavy First Rates. At the moment, their stats make their offensive capabilities look pretty weak on paper, but don't be fooled: The more cannons firing simultaneously, the scarier they are, and can make a ship rout in a single volley. They are also very, very, very difficult to take down, so if you know you'll be fighting one, bring lots of firepower.
posted 06-06-10 04:49 PM EDT (US)     13 / 13       
I like the bigger range of the small ships.My favorite ship-6th Rate- with some experience is able to take a 1st Rate by himself.You only need to dismast the enemy and use grape shot until you can board.
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